In order to produce a Pakistani better than yourself, you're going to have to pray a lot, spend a lot of time and effort, not to mention dedication and commitment to parenting. Many Pakistani-American parents today are dismayed that their children don't or can't speak Urdu, have little to no interest in Pakistan and are even embarrassed to be associated with anything Pakistani.

You can create a decent, honest Pakistani with strong Muslim values and a commitment to Pakistan even in America. Other ethnic and religious groups in America like the Chinese, the Jews and the Italians have done it. So can we. Here are a few ideas:

1. Start when they're young. You can't expect a child who's grown up with little to no interaction with Pakistani friends, food, language or dress to suddenly become a poster child for Pakistan. From the start, create a Pakistani environment in your home. For example, make a point to speak to the kids in Urdu and encourage them to respond in Urdu not in English, as many Pakistani-American parents make the mistake of doing.

Also, while you should have your children taste the cuisine of other cultures, Pakistani food should also be regularly eaten and cooked. In addition, Pakistani dress should be worn regularly at home, as well as on special occasions.

2. If you have a Pakistani community association in your city, make a point to fully benefit from its services. They may, for example, have a children's summer camp, Urdu classes or other activities to teach Pakistan's history and culture. Taking part in activities can also bring your children in contact with other young Pakistani-Americans, which is important, since they probably do not have much contact with kids of the same age and ethnic background on a regular basis.

3. Teach them how to read and write Urdu. If Urdu classes are not available in your community, then make a point to teach them or get a tutor for them. They should be taught Urdu at least once a week. Once they've achieved a sufficient level of ability in reading and writing, children should start writing letters to relatives in Pakistan in Urdu on a regular basis. This will not only hone their Urdu skills, but it will also keep them in contact with family members.

4. Build an Urdu library in your home. Have plenty of reading material in Urdu available. Ideally, items should cater to all ages, from the youngest to the oldest, as well as all reading levels. That means there should be children's stories, newspapers and Iqbal's poetry, for example. Make ample use of this resource by having the kids do book reports or presentations of the material in Urdu in family meetings, for example.

5. Visit Pakistan regularly. Sure, you can create a mini-Pakistan in your home, but there's nothing like the real thing. Invest in visiting your relatives back home regularly, at least every two years if you can afford it. And get everyone in on the plan. Have the kids find ways to save up for the big trip as well, by investing part of their allowance for the trip.

6. Teach them a healthy respect for Pakistani things. Make a point of buying items made in Pakistan, whether it's food, clothing or handicrafts. Encourage them to do the same. For example, if they're looking for a gift for a friend, suggest that they give some attractive handmade piece of art made in Pakistan instead of going to the local mall.

7. Pass on to them a pride in Pakistan, but also a healthy dose of skepticism. A number of Pakistani-American kids have an idealized notion of what Pakistan is like. But when they visit the country, they often see things that disturb them: racism, classism, poverty, bribery and other corruption. Don't sweep these issues under the carpet. Rather, be open and discuss them, condemn the problem without condemning Pakistan, and discuss ways you can work to change society for the better. This way, their patriotism is still intact, but they don't become nationalistic chauvinists either. Also remind them of the positive that is in Pakistan, such as stronger families, better treatment of the elderly, etc.

8. Encourage them to regularly donate to good causes in Pakistan. You can suggest that a portion of their allowance regularly goes to a specific charity, or that it's used to sponsor an orphan, for example. This will teach them the importance of being generous and remembering those who have not been as blessed as they have been. An orphan sponsorship might actually be a better cause to support since your child can keep in contact with the sponsored orphan, thereby making a friend in Pakistan too.

9. Share your family history and its connection to Pakistan with your kids. Explain why your family migrated to Pakistan. Describe how the decision was made, how many family members lost their lives, and the struggle to rebuild life in Pakistan after immigrating. Since most kids growing up in America are rarely taught world history, this is an important way of broadening their minds and discussing their roots with them.

10. Encouage them to share Pakistani culture with others. You can get the ball rolling on this by coming into your children's classrooms during events like Ramadan and Eid and sharing how they are celebrated in Pakistan. You can also encourage them to represent Pakistan during school events that celebrate multiculturalism and diversity. Also, encourage your children to do class presentations about some aspect of Pakistan if they have a choice of a topic. This way, they not only share their culture, but they themselves learn an important aspect of their history and culture.

11. Try to nourish their talents to help Pakistan. If your daughter is a good writer, have her become a regular contributor to a Pakistani children's magazine here in America or abroad. If your son is good at art, have him paint beautiful landscapes of Pakistan, auction them off, and give the money to a Pakistani charity. Whatever their talent, try to see how your children can use their skills to develop a commitment to Pakistan.

Date/Time Last Modified: 6/17/2002 3:48:12 PM

Readers' Comment

Kim: 5/28/2005 7:24:34 AM
It is a simple fact that one can't be loyal to two countries at the same time. One loyality will always be stronger. The very idea of "citizenship" is that one is loyal to the country they have citizenship in exclusively.

Kim: 5/28/2005 7:37:59 AM
British Politician Norman Tebbit once made a very important observation. He looked at situations where in sports the British team played a team where some of Britian's ethnic population was from, the ethnic population would root against Britian. This wasn't only true for people who had immigrated from that country, but for third and fourth generation too. We are talking about people with British citizenship here. People who may have never even visited the country they were rooting for. So Norman Tebbit asked a simple but profound question. If these people can't support their country on something so small as a sporting match, how can we expect them to support Britain when there is a more serious conflict between the two countries (when I mean conflict I merely mean that no two countries ever have exactly the same interests)? This test has come to be known as the cricket test. It isn't really about cricket. You don't have to like cricket to be considered British (though it helps) but if you do like cricket and you are a British citizen, then you should root for the British cricket team regardless of who they are playing, even if they are playing in your case - Pakistan.

Kim: 5/28/2005 8:07:29 AM
I am an American. And in America cricket really isn't our sport nor do we even commonly participate in international competitions except for the Olympics. But still the question of "who do you root for" is an important one. For who you root for in sporting events is really an fairly good indication of what is in your heart. It indicates which country you identify with and feel your loyality towards. And that should always be whichever country you have citizenship in. For that is the very definition of citizenship - sole exclusive loyality. To be a citizen means that you identify yourself with the country and its interests. So in the discussion here, if you have US citizenship, then you should call yourself an American, no hyphens, or for cases where you want to tell your ethnic origins you can say American of Pakistani descent. But your ethnic origins shouldn't matter as much for we in America place more importance on where someone is going than where they are from.

kam: 5/28/2005 9:58:20 PM
Duel citizenship a good idea for those who are minorities in a host country. because you never know when the host nation will turn against you and you'll need some where to go. a good example WW2 and what happened to the Jews regardless of if they were full German citizens the Kim would've wanted them to be fighting for Germany in WW1 etc. or not we all know what happened to them. if in their case they had a country at the time and had Duel citizenship I m sure a lot of them could have moved to this there and would have been safe. IM sure a lot would have stayed in Germany anyway because they considered themselves fully German and believe they wouldn't be harmed. we should learn from history and a good lesson is if our a minority and you have a choice of having Duel citizenship just get it look out for your best interest first and than everything else.

Kim: 5/28/2005 10:16:27 PM
This article says "From the start, create a Pakistani environment in your home. For example, make a point to speak to the kids in Urdu and encourage them to respond in Urdu not in English, as many Pakistani-American parents make the mistake of doing. " When you say "Pakistani-American" I believe you mean that these people have US citizenship. So, why treat these American children like they live in another country when they live in America? Now past immigrants have always brought traditions and their religion over with them from the old country, but they adapted them, mixing these traditions into the Great American Melting pot. And regarding language, one of my Grandmothers family were German immigrants coming here around 1901. She was the first person in the family to be born in America. While German was spoke in the home since her mother couldn't speak English, she was encouraged to speak English everywhere else, including among her brothers and sisters. When her father did hear any of his children speak German among themselves he would say "don't speak like you just got off the boat". See that is one of the key differences between immigrants today, and immigrants of past generations. Back then, the parents saw their children's future as an American future. They encouraged them to speak English as that was the dominantlanguage of their children's country - America. They didn't want their children to be looking backwards to the old country. They wanted the children to be full participants in the American experience. Sure they still kept many of the traditions of the old country, but that was as far as they went. They certainly didn't want the environment of their household to be a mini version of the old country. If they had wanted that, they would have stayed in the old country instead of forever parting with friends and family and making the dangerous trip over to America. Immigration made sense back then. But with the changes in technology, immigration makes no sense now. It does more harm to America than good. It is far too easy today for immigrants to maintain ties with the old country instead of being forced by their isolation away from the old country to make that necessary break from the past so they can move forward as Americans.

Kim: 5/29/2005 6:34:40 AM
I can sum this article up in one sentence - "teach your American child to be loyal to a foreign country". Can't you see why that would anger people who take their American citizenship seriously? It is practically subversive.

Kim: 5/29/2005 6:44:50 AM
Kam, you said "Duel citizenship a good idea for those who are minorities in a host country." If you become an US citizen then America is no longer a host country. It is supposed to be YOUR country. And regarding what happened in Germany well, America isn't Germany. I am suprised and kind of glad actually that you would bring the German situation up and the fact that the Jews had nowhere else to go. Sure some escaped to other parts of Europe and many came to the US though there was a famous situation where a ship full of Jewish refugees docked in America but the people were not allowed in. But it has come to be the belief among the Jews that they do need some place of their own to go to when things get too bad for them in other places in the world.

Kim: 5/31/2005 9:55:22 AM
Kam, you have my word that in America we will never "turn against" a minority group. That is one of the few things that has actually improved in the last 40 years in America instead of declined as most things in America have. I for one just out of my personal faith as an American would stand against any attempt to harm a group of people merely because they a part of an ethnic or religious minority.

Kam: 6/4/2005 10:55:03 PM
lets get real 44% of the country has a fav. opinion about muslim. at this point if u can you should get a Duel Citizenship its all about self interest and if ur a muslim the majority of the nation doesnt like u anyway whats there to say that even if kim is one of those among the 44% that have a fav. view about u and is willing to defend u if we can go that far. u'll still eligible for persecution so get those Duel Citizenships while u can =)

Kim: 6/5/2005 6:08:36 PM
Just because we don't like you it doesn't mean that we want to harm you. I for one have mixed feelings about Muslims since there are many I have met who share my moral concerns and seem like very decent people. But we are at war with a group of people who use Islam as their rallying cry. It is a very difficult time for us, but still I would defend you with my life. The people I would like to harm would be the people in the ACLU and other liberal organizations. They are the ones I mostly blame for what is going on, not innocent Muslim Americans. But I also call on Muslim Americans to help law enforcement whenever they can to root out Muslims who actually do want to harm Americans instead of accusing them of racism whenever they look into what is going on. It is well known that there are terrorist camps within Pakistan. Pakistan has a great leader who is trying to do what he can to stop them, but the fact still remains. Therefore the concern is only natural when people go to and from Pakistan. And that concern would be the same even if the person going back and forth from Pakistan is white. But again, we will not take what is going on out on innocent American citizens of the Islamic Faith. We might not like you. We might not trust you. But we will not persecute you.

Kim: 6/5/2005 6:38:57 PM
Kam, even if your concerns were justified (they are not but even if they were) wouldn't once the persecution started countries like Pakistan provide refuge even to those who aren't citizens? They would grant citizenship status at that time. Dual citizenship just breeds mistrust. If you are worried about the negative feelings we have against against Muslims, dual citizenship will increase them even more.

Kim: 6/8/2005 7:14:39 AM
People do come back from Pakistan to do Americans harm. A father and son were charged with lying to federal agents about the son's alleged training at an al-Qaida camp for a mission that a judge said was "to kill Americans whenever and wherever they can be found." Umer and Hamid Hayat are American citizens, and the younger man was born in California. The elder Hayat had just returned from Pakistan where he built a new home and contributed financial assistance to an al-Qaida sponsored program training his son and others to kill Americans whenever and wherever they can be found.

Kim: 6/8/2005 10:25:15 AM
On #7 it said "...be open and discuss them, condemn the problem without condemning Pakistan, and discuss ways you can work to change society for the better. This way, their patriotism is still intact, but they don't become nationalistic chauvinists either. " But these are AMERICAN CHILDREN you are talking about. They have US citizenship. Therefore they absolutely SHOULD NOT have patriotism towards Pakistan or for that matter any other country except America.

Kim: 6/12/2005 12:23:18 PM
Perhaps we Americans are naive but you might not understand how painful such stories as the ice cream man and his son arefor us. Here is a guy who have lived in America for years and years who now want to see us killed. Somone who sold ice cream to our children. And he taught his son, someone who was American by birth to hate us so much that he would go to a training camp in Pakistan to learn how to kill us. Look I know not everyone who is from Pakistan is a terrorist or a terrorist supporter. But I also know that element does exist in America. Now if you want to not have the whole community defined by this small element you need to do what you can to help the FBI and Homeland Security root out these people and eliminate the threat. And you also need to stand up against the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) as for what they do really does make others associate the small terrorist element in the American Islamic community with all of America's Muslims. When the ice-cream man and his son were arrested, did CAIR applaud the actions? No. They practically rushed to the defense of the Ice-Cream man and his son. You can blame CAIR for any perception the rest of America might have that Ice-Cream man and son is a reflection of the entire community.

Kim: 6/12/2005 12:26:55 PM
Here is an article that I did not write but it was so well written that I wanted to share it with you. Again, I didn't write it. It can be found on the following web page http://tinyurl.com/759fw . June 10, 2005 Jihad On Main Street, U.S.A.

Kim: 6/12/2005 2:04:09 PM
My mistake about the ice cream man and his son. The FBI screwed up. Father and son are innocent. Sorry I am too stupid to check the facts before posting lies about my Pakistani friends. Christian Science Monitor posted June 10, 2005, updated 11:06 a.m. Terror allegations disappear from court filing Different affidavit in Lodi father-son case given to media than used for court. By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com The Los Angeles Times reports that the Federal Bureau of Invesigation apparently gave the media a different, far more damaging version of an affidavit against a Lodi, California father and son charged with lying to federal officials than the one that was finally given to a court in Sacramento Thursday. 06/09/05 The affidavit filed Thursday did not contain any of the sensation material from earlier in the week which said the son's "potential terrorist targets included hospitals and groceries, and contained names of key individuals and statements about the international origins of 'hundreds' of participants in alleged Al Qaeda terrorist training camps in Pakistan." Attorneys for the two men now say they will challenge the government on this discrepancy, which they say as a deliberate move by the FBI to prejudice the case against their clients. Defense attorney Johnny Griffin III, who represents the father, Umer Hayat, accused the government of "releasing information it knew it could not authenticate." The FBI said the different versions were the result of "unfortunate oversight due to miscommunication." The Christian Science Monitor reports that the son, Hamid Hayat, first came to the attention of the FBI on May 29. Authorities discovered that his name was on the US government's 'no fly' list while he was en route from South Korea to San Francisco. Such lists, used by the Department of Homeland Security, include names of suspected terrorists culled from confiscated computers in terrorist raids world wide. USA Today reported Thursday that the FBI says it is "looking for terror connections" between the father and son and three other individuals (including two imams) from the same area who were arrested for immigration violations. FBI Agent John Cauthen said numerous federal and local investigators are conducting interviews and examining evidence seized during searches of homes and property. "The investigation, at this point, consists of identifying and nailing down the connections between the people in custody and anyone else," Cauthen said.. The Washington Post reports that the FBI insists that "[its] work in the farming town has been going on for years – and it's not over yet." Agent Cauthen made this remark after "some members of Lodi's large Pakistani community that the probe was triggered by a rift between fundamentalist and mainstream factions.." The Hayats are apparently members of a group with more "traditional Islamic values" while the imams who belong to a group "seeking greater cooperation and understanding from the larger community." Meanwhile the Post and others also reports on the missteps that led the FBI to miss the 9/11 hijackers. The report (pdf) by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine said the FBI missed at least five chances to "detect the presence of two of the suicide hijackers – Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar – after they first entered the United States in early 2000." 'We believe that widespread and longstanding deficiencies in the FBI's operations and Counterterrorism Program caused the problems we described in this report,' Fine's investigators wrote, including a shoddy analytical program, problems sharing intelligence information and 'the lack of priority given to counterterrorism investigations by the FBI before September 11.' The FBI said in a statement that it had taken steps to address many of the issues raised in the report. But Jamie S. Gorelick, a member of the 9/11 commissiom, which focused primarily on missteps by the CIA, said the "litany of reports documenting FBI problems in recent months 'has to be a wake-up call' for Director Robert S. Mueller III and other FBI officials." The FBI arrests in Lodi come at the same time that the Patriot Act is being debated again in the Congress. The Bush administration and the FBI have asked for new powers to be added to the Act. The Los Angeles Times reports that in a speech yesterday asking for the Patriot Act to be made permanent, President Bush said that since the 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, "federal terrorism investigations have resulted in charges against more than 400 suspects, and more than half of those charged have been convicted." But the American Civil Liberties Union challenged Mr. Bush's numbers, citing a study done by Syracuse University that showed the "vast majority" of the 400 cases were for minor, non-terrorism offenses." Lisa Graves, an ACLU senior counsel, said the study showed that most of those arrested "posed such little threat to national security that most served no jail time."

Kim: 6/12/2005 3:07:14 PM
One of the concerns I have is that I look at the Italian experience in America and I wonder how similiar it is with what is going on today with Muslims. While it is true that not everyone who were Italian immigrants were members of the Mafia it is also true that the mafia was a part of Italian society and it did make its way into America along with the immigrants. And again, while surely not all immigrants were members of the mafia, I would say that at least in certain immigrant communities most all of those living there knew someone who was in the mafia or at least knew someone who knew someone who was in the mafia. There was an organization founded supposedly to prevent discrimination against Americans of Italian descent that would always compaign about the stereotypes of the Mafia that they would accuse the government as perpetuating as if it was an attack on all Americans of Italian descent for the government to try to stop the Mafia. And whenever the government prosecuted a case against a member of the Mafia, the leader of the organization would always call racism, racism, racism. Well it turned out that the leader of this so call Italian American non-discrimination group was involved himself in the Mafia. So of course it makes me wonder, is CAIR involved in supporting terrorists just like the so called Italian American non discrimination organization had connections to the Mafia?

Kim: 6/12/2005 11:34:21 PM
Joseph Columbo Sr. started the Italian-American Civil Rights League in 1970. He even said on a popular tv talk/interview show at the time that there was no mafia. Nope, the Mafia didn't exist. But the truth was that he was the head of one of the Five Families of New York. But he used the cover of his newly formed organization as a way to cover-up this fact. On June 29, 1970 the first rally of the "civil rights" group was called to celebrate Italian Unity Day, at Columbus Circle in mid-town Manhattan. Over 50,000 people turned up. Five U.S. Congressmen attended the first rally and gave speeches. Godfrey Cambridge, the noted black comedian, made an appearance to add the support of another minority. When Joseph Columbo Sr. addressed the crowd, he said, "if the FBI and Justice Department want to make me boss of a Mafia family, so that's what I'll be. And I'll use my position to help people of Italian-American heritage.The immediate impact of the first rally was to make it politically incorrect to use the terms "Mafia" and "Cosa Nostra" in polite society in America. Attorney General John Mitchell ordered the FBI to stop using the words "Mafia" and "Cosa Nostra" in their reports. The producers of The Godfather had to delete all reference to the word "Mafia" in the film's text. The New York Times banned the use of the words. They were deleted from any TV production. The League grew and prospered. Frank Sinatra and other top stars performed at a Madison Square Garden benefit and raised $500,000 in November 1970. Most of that money went straight into the Mob's bank. By the end of 1970, the League had grown to 150,000 members, with over 50 chapters across the country. The League had raised more than $1 million, most of which went straight to the founder. Columbo Sr. had perpetrated the ultimate rip-off: a multi-million-dollar racket that was all above board. To me the similiarities between the Italian-American Civil Rights League and CAIR are striking. It wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the money CAIR raises goes to terrorists. And I really wouldn't be surprised to find out someday that leading members of CAIR had connections with terrorist groups.

kam: 7/6/2005 11:56:44 AM
Title of Fatwa American Muslims: Balance between Religion and Citizenship Date of Fatwa 24/ September/ 2002 Date of Reply 24/ September/ 2002 Topic Of Fatwa Muslim's Responsibilties Question of Fatwa I am not a Muslim. I have to be honest that I deeply disagree with some of the teachings of your religion. I'm sure that as a Catholic, you share the same misgivings of my religion. However, I respect the right of free expression of religion, no matter where that might be and I would fight for the right of all Muslims to live in peace in the U.S. In the United States, we have a tradition of justice and law that is based on ethics totally apart from religion and the two (usually) do not cross. In the Muslim world, politics and religion seem to be one and the brotherhood of Islam appears to be far more important than any national ties. Could you please speak on this subject? Specifically, whether or not Muslims are able to apply their duty as citizens at the expense of their loyalty to their religion. Thank you very much and God bless you. ---------------------------- Name of Mufti Dr. M. M. Abu Laylah Content of Reply In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear Robert, we are really pleased to receive this question as it gives us a chance to dust off the misunderstanding that has lasted for consecutive years about Islam and Muslims. Really, brothers in humanity like you give us a chance to express the true image of Islam and allows for a space for us all to shed light on common grounds bonding us in humanity. As regard your question, it’s to be stressed that citizenship must be understood as a concept where an individual is recognized by a State as being a member of that State. This bond of citizenship grant individuals certain rights and they are required to perform certain duties. Along with this are demands of faith, i.e. religious obligations, according to the precepts and dictates of each religion. Balance needs to be stricken as to avoid conflict between this and that. In Islam, being a true believer does not run in contrast to being to a faithful citizen. In fact, both complement each other. Muslims are urged to be proactive citizens in their society; they should cooperate with others in enhancing the betterment of that society. However, being proactive in this regard does not imply that the Muslim has to do things that contravene his religious teachings. This is based on a juristic rule stating that “a Muslim is a citizen of Islam wherever he is”. Thus, he should not jeopardize the teachings of his religion when some policies of his government run counter to them; he must champion right and justice wherever he finds himself and in any post he occupies. This point is further clarified by Dr.Muhammad M. Abu-Laylah, Professor of the Islamic Studies & Comparative Religions at Al-Azhar University, as he states: “Thank you very much, dear Robert, thanks for contacting us, and for your extra polite approach. First, we would like to tell you that we, as Muslims, don’t see any contradiction between ethics and religious values. Ethics goes back to religion, and they are two faces of the same coin. By ethics, I mean the moral values and, of course, I exclude what is termed in modern time as ‘new morality’, which allows free sex and openness in relations between opposite sexes, homosexuality, lesbianism, etc… If ethics mean justice, equality, peace, and order, then it is totally in agreement not only with Islam, but also with all religions as well. Islam preaches that all human races go back to one origin that is Adam and Eve. Both were created by Allah and were sent to this world to inhibit and develop it, and not to live apart from God. God provided the first man and woman with a guide to conduct their life according to Allah’s Will. In the Qur’an, Allah addresses all humanity at large, saying: “O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul.” (An-Nisa’: 1) He Almighty also says, “O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made `you nations and tribes that ye may know one another.” (Al-Hujurat: 13) Superiority in Islam is not based on race or advanced technology. Rather, it is based on man’s own works and good intention. That is why Islam was accepted by almost all nations and it gained a suitable climate for itself in every corner of this world both in past and present. Islam, as you noticed, does not acknowledge any separation between politics and the state since man is a whole entity that cannot be divided into two parts: materialistic and spiritual. This division you have in the West is the cause of all the problems facing nations and individuals. Concerning the way a Muslim could adapt himself to the society where he lives, let’s say America or whatever for instance, we see no contradiction between maintaining one’s religious duties and being a good citizen in the State where one lives. Muslims are commanded by God to be good citizens in terms of manners and co-operation with others, regardless of differences as to race, sex or religion. A Muslim should be honest, sincere, and trustworthy. He must never betray. We hope that in America the law will pave way for individuals to exercise their own private rights, rather than compelling people to comply with specific and cynical code of ethics, which as you mentioned, might contravene their religious obligations.. We, as Muslims, believe that difference can help us more to develop our life and cement our human relationship.”

Kim: 7/7/2005 8:06:25 PM
I really wish that I can believe you Kam, but days like these make it very hard to.

Kim: 7/7/2005 8:16:43 PM
This is based on a juristic rule stating that “a Muslim is a citizen of Islam wherever he is”. Well I can intepret this in two ways of course. A good way and a bad way. In a good way, it means that you will stick to principles regardless of society's pressures. That is something much needed in the Western World. But then there is another way to intepret this. That way is if we are in a conflict with a Muslim country you would side with them. Of course that is where the concern comes in.

Kim: 7/7/2005 8:19:03 PM
"since man is a whole entity that cannot be divided into two parts" So how can you use the term Pakistani-American?

Kim: 7/7/2005 8:49:18 PM
CAIR is supporting the terrorist cause by criticizing all our efforts against them. Muslims in America must tell CAIR that it doesn't speak for them! (or does it?)

Kim: 7/7/2005 9:39:43 PM
President Teddy Roosevelt, in 1915, said it best: "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities." And again in 1918, he said: "There can be no 50-50 Americanism in this country. There is room here for only 100 percent Americanism, only for those who are Americans and nothing more."

kam: 7/8/2005 7:38:59 PM
Kim if america fight a just war again a muslim country i'll support that war but if it fight a unjust war i'll oppose it two clear examples 1)Afghanistan bin laden attacked us he was in Afghanistan used it as a base and traning ground the Taliban refused to give him up we went into get him that was a just war and i supported it. 2)Iraq unjust war based on the twin lies to terrorism and WMD neither were present in iraq but the second one we helped to create in iraq and fuel more of it around the world so i dont support the war we dont need to be there. its as simple as that as muslim i m not worried about countries i m thinking in bigger thing regardless of what country it is if its working towards the principles i believe in than i'll support it and if my country is working against my principles than i'll oppose it................................ AS far as this statement is concerned "since man is a whole entity that cannot be divided into two parts" its speaking on the issue that you cant leave God and all your moral at the place of worship when you leave (no division between the secular and religious with in a person) God is everywhere not just in the mosque temple chruch so ur values and beliefs have to go w/u when u leave these places... on CAIR they're an organization that protect my civil liberties just like the ACLU and i believe i need them to stick up for me and i thank God they're around for people like me because u probably wont understand what its like to be hasseled by the police because what u look like but i do and you can all that if ur not a terrorist what are you worried about well i m worried about being abused by the goverment for what i believe in and what i look like........... President Teddy Roosevelt, in 1915, said what he said and we still have italian-american, irish-american, german-american, black-american, jewish-american, mexican-american, and so on and so forth thats never gonna end because this country is is built on immigrants and they're gonna keep comming.

Kim: 7/8/2005 9:05:33 PM
You said. Kam, "CAIR they're an organization that protect my civil liberties just like the ACLU". Both organizations pose a greater threat to my country than al Quada could even dream of being. CAIR really hurts American perception of Mulisms in America because CAIR protests every effort we make to fight terrorism. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that CAIR has leaders involved with terrorism. My advice to you is either to disavow CAIR or you will be defined by them.

Kim: 7/10/2005 8:03:23 PM
I'm a moron. Haha!!

Kim: 7/10/2005 8:38:46 PM
Iraq was a center of terrorism and was getting increasingly more dangerous as time when by. And it didn't look like that situation was going to change for the better any time soon. We didn't want to wait until Saddam did something really serious to us for then it would be too late. Saddam might not have had WMDs but he was doing everything he could to get WMD. And I am still believe that he did have at least some WMDs that he had shipped away across to Syria and/or Iran.

kam: 7/11/2005 5:03:40 PM
CAIR and the ACLU saves lives and i know this as a fact they've helped innocent people get outta jails. so i mma stick with CAIR AND THE ACLU TO PROTECT ME FROM OVER REACHING GOVERMENT. and i could care less of whose gonna say what as long as im protected from the goverment i can take care of myself on the streets =)... "Kim: 7/10/2005 8:03:23 PM I'm a moron. Haha!! " if you say so than i AGREE LOL as for iraq and saddam he wasnt stupid he wasnt gonna attack us cuz he knew we'd kick his ass and there was no terrorism as far as iraq is concerned you've got to get a little lesson in history as far as WMD going to iran and syria are concerned. saddam would never send any of his stuff to iran because they're bitter enemies iraq and iran fough a 8 year bloody war that over a million dead and america played on both sides in that war. plus saddam tried that be4 in 1991 gulf war he sent his best plane over into iran because he knew no one would bomb them there but the funny part about that is after the war iran sent the piolets back but kept the plans lol... as for syria the baath party in syria was and always has been a competing party for rule of the arab world against the baath party of iraq so no way saddam would give them the WMD to kick his ass w/after the war as if he though he wasnt gonna get knocked out.

Kim: 7/19/2005 7:11:28 AM
I was listening to someone from CAIR on the radio today, and if this is the kind of representation you want then you shouldn't be surprised when people start hating you.

Kim: 7/20/2005 9:46:04 AM
Kam, I can't see how you can support the ACLU when they mostly support what Muslims are supposed to be against. They support homosexuality and most all other types of perverted behavior and has been one of the main forces that have so eroded our society. How can you support this organization which is being so destructive to the society you live in (you live in America, right)? Surely you don't want the ACLU to further succeed in turning America into a today sexual depraved society. Surely, you like me would want to fight what the ACLU is doing.

Kim: 7/20/2005 10:09:52 AM
What happened in Great Britian proves that people of Pakistani Descent are a danger. Surely not all people from Pakistan, just like not all the people from Italy who came to America were members of the Mafia. But just like the Mafia within the Italian immigration population in America in the beginning of the 20th century, there is a segment of those who come from Pakistani descent who are involved in terrorism terrorist. I just ask those who are of Pakistani descent not to cry racism whenever Federal Officials come in to the community and investigate. Be open with them. Let them in your mosques to observe what is going on. They will be respectful. But they need to determine if the mosque is being used to plan and carry out terrorist attacks like that mosque in Great Britain was being used for. If you have nothing to hide, why force them to get a search warrant. Aren't places of worship supposed to be a place of openness? And if there are other ways people in the Muslim community in America can help Federal Officials they should do so for the sake of our country. America tolerates all kinds of religions in our country. We respect the right of people to practice the religion they choose. But we can not and must never tolerate acts of terrorism, especially on our homeland. The Muslim population needs to root out those in their population who are terrorists, regardless of family ties or religous or racial solidarity. The sooner that terrorism is destroyed the sooner the burden will be off Muslim Americas as being perceived as potential terrorists. It seems to me that the Muslim community in America has everything to gain from helping Federal Officials root out the enemy within them as quickly as possible.

Kim: 7/22/2005 10:32:13 AM
It might surprise you Kam, but I really, really want to like Muslims. Although I could never live the Muslim lifestyle myself as for me it is too restrictive, I certainly respect those who do. Muslims can play a very constructive role in American society and give it a well needed boost of morality which we certainly need these days. They can especially help in fighting the homosexuals who have all but gained acceptablity in our society. I would really like to see Moslums succeed and prosper in America. That is, if it wasn't for the fact that so many of them are trying to kill us.

Kim: 7/22/2005 10:50:13 AM
By the way, I respect the Amish too, although I would never want to become one or live like they do. But of course the important difference between the Amish and the Muslims is that there aren't Amish terrorists out there who want to kill us.

Kim: 7/22/2005 10:53:55 AM
President Teddy Roosevelt, in 1915, said it best: "There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities." Sounds kind of like America today, don't you think? Hyphenated Americanism is a bigger threat to America than al Quada could ever dream of being.

libra_dear2003@yahoo.com: 8/9/2005 10:03:08 PM
can i ask if it is true that some muslim are saddist?

An Indian: 8/11/2005 2:37:20 PM
I dont understand the point in trying to make a mini Pakistan in US, why dont we guys earn well eat well, and live well. (rather than getting entangeled in things that are keeping us backward) Why to forget that we are humans first and Muslims later. Religion has been created by man. Rather than teach the children that they should live in peace, they should always speak truth and things like that, why do we want to teach them things specific to a particular religion. Do u feel that other religions are not worth, Let the child decide, once he grows up, if he is interested in any religion or not. In case you are so worried about pakistan, then go there and help create a better pakistan, which will have less of poverty, unemployment, women should have more power, people should be rich, they should have better health care facilities. Forget about religion my friend, only then will you be able to think about other better things Look at any developed country and think how can we acchieve the same.

sabeel as salaf not khalaf: 8/14/2005 8:08:02 AM
Assaslamu Alaikum to all Muslims If anyone cares to remember I wrote on this site last year. What I wrote still stands true to this day, and that is we need to start by creating better Muslims. The true religion that all prophets were sent with from the first (Adam - peace be upon him) to the last (Muhammad- peace be upon him) was one religion - ISLAM - which means to submit to the one true God - the creator of the heavens and the earth, and there is nothing like him. All of the prophets and messengers came with one religion. All of them are brothers (in religion). Jesus and Moses (may Allahs peace be upon them) are prophets of Islam by the consensus of the Muslim scholars. Our Islamic relgion enjoins on us to : 1) Worship Allah (God) alone without any associate or intermediary. 2) To follow his last messenger Muhammad - peace be upon him who has been sent with the all encompassing way of life. Sunni Muslims believe that Jesus was not killed by the Jews as Allah mentions in the Qur'aan. Jesus we believe will return at the end of time and will judge by the Qur'aan. 3) To be dutiful to our parents, even if they are non - Muslim. And of course as Allah made clear in the Qur'aan - the final revelation of Allah to mankind - Obedience to parents is in that which is good, not in that which Allah has prohibited. Dear readers - Muslim and non-Muslim, read a translation of the meanings of the Qur'aan in your language (the best one in the Emglish language is published by Darassalam, Riyaad. Also check out the one by 'Saheeh' international publications. If you are sincere for your quest for the quest for the truth about life: why are we here on earth?, what is the purpose of our existence? and where are we going after this life? you will surely find it. Please do not judge Islam by Bin ladin,Al Khawaarij ,shia, sufis,heretics and other misguided Muslims. I, alhamdullilah don't judge Americans by Kim!!!, since the best Americans have become Muslims. Yes! They are Muslims who come from America, Britain, France, Germany and many other European countries not to mention the Africas, Asias, Australasia etc. Please do yourself a favour, and research by reading genuine information about Islam written by Sunni/Salafi Muslim scholars. Please do visit www.salafipublications.com (Britain) and also www.troidorg.com (Canada) for translations of works by Muslim scholars and callers. Also view www.salafitalk.net for authentic Islamic info. Readers, the True relgion Islam is greater than any one nation and its man-made constitution, since Islam is from our creator, not man or woman - made. So read, and submit to the true religion Islam, and don't buy the lies of the Zionist controlled media industry, whether you are in the West or East. WAKE UP!!! Learn about the true relgion before your time comes. May this short advice serve as a guidance to all Muslims and Non-Muslims alike.

Kim: 8/21/2005 8:55:06 AM
If a person can't with all his or her heart commit their total loyality to America, then that person shouldn't have American citizenship. It is possible to live in America without US citizenship. That person is known as a resident alien. For people who come to America, citizenship is a choice, not a requirement. And if they still retain loyality to "the old country" then they shouldn't become US citizens.

Jeff: 8/21/2005 9:01:26 AM
Isn't it sacrilege to put the Qur'aan on the Internet as you are reducing it to a bunch of ones and zeros. For that matter isn't it sacrilege to have the Qur'ann translated into other languages since originally it was in Arabic and to translate it into other languages it isn't the Qur'ann as given.

sabeel as salaf not khalaf: 8/31/2005 11:12:05 PM
Assasalaamu Alaikum Muslims. You know there is a authentic hadeeth (hadeeth - saying of the prophet Muhammad - May Allahs peace and blessings be upon him) "Allah does not thank the one who does not thank the people". So thanks Jeff, for reminding everyone that the Quran - revealed in the Arabic language - can be listened to on the internet - something which I completely forgot to mention - until Jeff reminded us all. Check out www.alafasy.com and also the recitation of sa'd Al ghaamidee. Also husaree, hudhaifee, and minshaawee. Indeed by listening to the Qur'aan being recited by a reputed reciter or by reading it in arabic if one is able, one really begins to sense this revelation from God. Please also visit www.fatwaonline.com for a free download of the translation of the meanings of the noble Qur'aan in the English language. Also check out www.thenoblequran.com Wa Salam

sabeel as salaf not khalaf: 8/31/2005 11:22:22 PM
assalaamu Alaikum Muslims. when you enter www.alafasy.com website look to the right of the screen and you will see a list in arabic. Click on المصحف المرتلwhich will take you to a list of the chapters of the qur'aan. Recommended listening Chapts 1,2,3. Shorter chapters 17,and 18. Wa Salam

Kam: 9/6/2005 8:17:42 PM
Nationalism, despite its claims to unite, always divides - the 'natives' from the 'foreigners', the whites from the blacks. It divides people into groups like a farmer separates different breeds of cattle. Y. islam TO AN INDIAN: if you dont care about ur religion thats fine but dont tell the rest of us what comes first and who created what we have our own opinions beliefs and knowledge thank you. To KIM: i just got duel citizenship just to tick u off lol and it was pretty cheap now i have two passports YEY lol

kam: 9/6/2005 8:21:53 PM
to sabeel as salaf not khalaf: u may have ur opinion but dont knock what u dont know read up on islamic history be4 u go around calling sufis heritics am i sayin all sufis follow islam no but majority of sufis do follow islam to the letter and they do more if it wasnt for sufis islam wouldnt have spread like it did so u should thank the sufis for all they did for islam

Jeff: 9/9/2005 1:19:39 PM
How can you dare translate the Koran into English? It was revealed to Mohammad in Arabic. To put it into English is PROFANE!

Jeff: 9/9/2005 1:20:52 PM
Putting the Koran on the internet is Profane! How can you respect the pages of the Koran if there are no pages?

Kim: 9/9/2005 6:01:19 PM
Kam, remember "ice cream man" and his son and how you said they were innocent. Here is an article from just a couple of weeks ago about them. http://www.sacunion.com/pages/sacramento/articles/5990/ Magistrate Judge Dale Drozd ruled Tuesday there were no new circumstances that would justify releasing Hamid Hayat, 22, and his father, Umer Hayat, 47. In June, both were ordered held without bond on charges of lying to federal investigators about the younger man’s alleged attendance at an al-Qaida terrorist training camp in Pakistan. Point is The FBI DIDN'Tt screw up (for once) like you said they did. Ice-Cream man and son will be found guilty.

Kim: 9/9/2005 6:05:48 PM
Kam, I take back what I said about that you don't have to worry in America about "people coming after you". I will never persecute you, but it is obvious that the US government will not be able to protect people from violent gangs if things break down. All I can tell you is that I will be too busy going after ACLU members to go after you. Not that I would even think of going after you.

sabeel as salaf not khalaf: 9/10/2005 7:26:48 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum to all muslims. That I reply to everyone on this forum is like trying to swat every annoying fly that passes me by so that I regard them as significant, and thereby get upset by the insignificant. And Allah tells us to be patient over what they say (Surah Al Muzzamil:verse 10). Wa Salaam.

Jeff: 9/10/2005 9:18:26 AM
How can you respect the Koran, touch it carefully, etc if there is no book, just a computer screen? That is why it is profane to put the Koran on the internet especially in a language that isn't the language that God gave the Koran to Mohammad in. It is a sin to put the Koran on the Internet and the websites that do should be shut down.

Kim: 9/10/2005 9:22:55 AM
Kam, if you have so called dual citizenship then your heart is full of deceit. Obviously one of the two countries you feel more loyality towards and therefore should only be a citizen of that country. I am guessing that you feel more loyality towards Pakistan. I am correct am I not?

Kim: 9/10/2005 9:28:36 AM
"For example, make a point to speak to the kids in Urdu and encourage them to respond in Urdu not in English." Why? You live in the United States of America. Your children are and perhaps you are even American citizens. The language of the United States is ENGLISH! My grandmother was an immigrant. And while she spoke to her mother in the native tongue as that was the only language she understood, her father demanded that she speak only English to him and her brothers and sisters. "Don't speak like you just got off the boat" he would say. See he was looking out for my grandmothers future, not trying to hang on to his past.

Kim: 9/10/2005 9:59:19 AM
Ice Cream man and son in the US and the bombings done in the UK by people of Pakistani descent proves that there are terrorists within the immigrant Pakistani community in the West. I am not saying that everyone of Pakistani descent in America are terrorists, but I do think that it is like the mafia was in early 20th century America. Most Pakistani immigrants might not be terrorists, but they probably know who, within their community are terrorists but are too afraid to speak out. I would urge them to speak out and let the FBI know what is going on. Please submit your tip to https://tips.fbi.gov . If CAIR cared about stopping terrorists they would have a link to that web site!

: 9/18/2005 9:42:10 PM
Kim: 9/9/2005 6:01:19 PM Kam, remember "ice cream man" and his son and how you said they were innocent. Here is an article from just a couple of weeks ago about them.

kam: 9/21/2005 8:15:28 PM
NO Kim i dont remember saying anything about the "ice cream man"

kam: 9/21/2005 8:25:37 PM
Kim: "descent proves that there are terrorists within the immigrant Pakistani community in the West" the ppl who bombed london werent immigrants they were British born of pakistani decent duh and its foolish to say that pakistani immigrants in their community know who the terrorist are and wont tell the fbi wtf terrorist attacks effect everyone that lives in this country alrite lets be critical and say that pakistanis or muslim immigrants have no heart they dont give a ish about non muslim getting killed but even if thats the case i m sure they care about their economic situation and their safty and everyone cares about themselves and their family so its logical if someone knows that a terrorist attacks is comming soon or a terrorist is gonna try something they're gonna report it because its in their best interest and self interest is the best motivation for correct action.

Kim: 9/23/2005 6:38:50 PM
Check my 6/12/2005 12:23:18 PM post about "Ice Cream Man". The terrorists are among you. They are within your community.

Kim: 9/24/2005 4:53:06 PM
Kam :ppl who bombed london werent immigrants they were British born of pakistani descent. Well doesn't that make it all the worst and kind of bring home what we are talking about here and how serious it all is? They were born BRITISH. They were BRITISH citizens, yet they didn't feel like they were British even though they were born and raised in England. Exactly the type of people Sir Norman Tebbit was concerned about when he made his observation that became known as "the cricket test" that everyone got so upset about. Too bad no one listened to him. What happened in London could have been avoided had people heeded the warnings of Sir Norman Tebbit.

Kim: 9/24/2005 4:54:45 PM
Kam: everyone cares about themselves and their family. Well obviously that isn't true as these terrorists blow themselves up.

Kim: 9/24/2005 5:02:32 PM
I remember seeing this Iraqi interviewed after we took Bahdad. He himself had once been a victim of Saddam's government and was put in jail for some time and abused and such. But he said if Saddam had come to his house and asked for shelter he could not refuse. It was the tradition of his people not to refuse such a request. It was their "way." If your foreign cousin got into America and he came knocking at your door for a place to stay and you knew that he was a terrorist or you found out while he was living there that he was a terrorist, I honestly don't know what you would do. People have different traditions and morals throughout the world so I don't know what your decision would be simply because people have different "ways" of thinking about things. I do know that the old American saying "blood is thicker than water" has often been proven true.

kam: 9/24/2005 8:17:29 PM
Kim the neo nazi/skinheads biggots the kkk child molesters durg dealers human trafficers hurican rita and all that other crap is around us as well so let us pray for our selves=)..

kam: 9/24/2005 8:22:38 PM
oh and KIM in my community i grew up among guiedos and now in the past five year its turned into little russia so i duno maybe be4 the italian mafia was round me and now prob the russian mafia will be round here no big deal i dont see em so its all good

Kim: 9/26/2005 9:12:29 AM
Kam I really didn't understand your response. You said it was ok that the Russian Mafia was taking over your community? To me having the Russian Mafia taking over your community is just another indication that our immigration laws are way too lax and that our Federal Government has failed us. The Federal Government should have been much much more careful in who they let in from Russia. Just more proof for me that we need to all but end immigration to our country. Once it might have benefited our country, but no more. As for the kkk they really don't exist anymore. Perhaps a few wackos here and there who call themselves kkk but not as any organized group of people. The kkk is by and large a thing of the past except they do have a kkk member of the US Senate (who is very old).

Kim: 9/26/2005 10:49:01 AM
I agree with you that we have much more to worry about in this country than the terrorists. Most importantly, I feel, that we really need to worry about the Culture "War" that is taking place in America. Why shouldn't the 10 commandments be painted in a courtroom for example? Why should voter pamplets be in several languages when to vote you need to be a citizen and to be a citizen you need to learn English? In the end unless we win the "Culture War" we will not survive as a nation.

kam: 9/26/2005 9:08:43 PM
KIM: so whats ur opinion on the IRA bombing or ETA bombing in spain should english not allow the irish into england? should spain deport its citizens who are basque from spain?

kam: 9/26/2005 9:11:04 PM
Isaid it be4 and i'll say it again: Nationalism, despite its claims to unite, always divides - the 'natives' from the 'foreigners', the whites from the blacks. It divides people into groups like a farmer separates different breeds of cattle.

kam: 9/26/2005 9:19:37 PM
immigration will never stop unlike european nations who've got a defined sense of nationality because they've had nations for extended perid of times america is an immigrant nation and always will be as for judeo-christian values i have no problem with them 98% of these values are my values so if this country wants to apply those values no prob but if they want to make it christian nation run like iran's islamic republic i gotta problem. on the language issue i agree everyone should learn to speak read write english but i dont see a problem with people being able to speak multipule languages that'll just show the world that we're as smart =)

Kim: 9/27/2005 7:23:01 PM
The IRA hasn't attacked for years. And I really don't like telling other countries what to do. But let me put it this way, I would understand it if the English did not allow the Irish into or if Spain deports its citizens who are Basque from Spain.

Kim: 9/27/2005 7:26:49 PM
We separate church and state in America but should not mean that we can't support Christian traditions and beliefs. It just means we don't force people to belong to a certain church or require them to believe a certain way.

Kim: 9/27/2005 7:39:23 PM
The problem isn't that there are people who are able to speak multiple languages. The problem is that we over-accommodate those who don't speak English well. When I went to vote last week the signs were in both English and Chinese. What's up with that? No one in my neighborhood even speaks Chinese. My question is though, if a person needs a sign in the Chinese language to find out where to go to vote should they really be voting in the first place?

Kim: 9/27/2005 7:43:57 PM
I am not the one who is dividing. It is those who must identify themselves by hyphens. They are the ones dividing this country.

Kim: 9/30/2005 7:10:00 PM
I am dumb.

Asmara: 10/2/2005 3:07:27 AM
Hey Kim Abt those Chinese signs, I think no one likes wasting thier time they were thier for a damn reason.....Also I would love to see u travel around the world n get annoyed when u find nothing in ur beloved language english......hope u know the world facts my Dear english speaking Kim that Chinese (885 million) is the top language spoken in the world followed by Spanish (332 million) n then THIRD English (322 Million)...And abt all ur cruel and hatred comments on Muslims...Lets talk abt ur countries duties to our country (BUSH asks Mushraff for a border to bomb afghnistan to find Osma Bin LKadin ) he does not find Osma but destroysteh whole land. End result by the time I visited Islamabad n all the major cities for summer vacation (as I went to a girls boarding school towards the north) It was covered with thousands of homless people where was ur BUSH at that time probably sleeping and having food at his own comfort and this fact is not based on corrupt media info its a first hand experience. Then it was followed by Iraqi war .Lets me "Deception behins Iraqi War" Bush's Reasons for Iraqi War" Offical Reasons: 1. War On Terror 2. WMD 3. Denied Access to Inspectors 4. Regime Change 5. Saddam Hussein is Evil 6. Curry Favor with the Middle East 7. Set an Example for Nations that Sponsor Terrorism 8. Liberate Iraqis 9. Iraq's Broken Promises 10. Revenge 11. Threat To the Region      12. Because We Can 13. Unfinished Business 14. For the Sake of History 15. Disarmament 16. Commitment to Our Children 17. Imminent Threat 18. Preserve Peace 19. Threat To Freedom 20. Link to al Qaeda 21. Iraq is Unique 22. Relevance of the United Nations 23. International Law "Why his Reasons were Bias" Bush said that the United States "has no quarrel with the Iraqi people, who have suffered for too long." Bush pointed out that Hussein has used chemical weapons in the war against Iran and on Kurdish citizens in Halabja, but failed to point out that at that time he was a U.S. ally; Hussein has been bold enough to use such weapons only when he had the United States to protect him from serious international sanction, as U.S. officials at the time did. Bush's case against Saddam Hussein is based on the Iraqi leader's disregard for U.N. Security Council resolutions calling on Iraq to disarm and respect human rights. It certainly is true that the Iraqi regime has long denied basic political and human rights to its citizens (including when Hussein was a valued U.S. ally in the 1980s). Hussein's Iraq has refused to fully comply with Security Council resolutions, but it is hardly alone in this. It is not a secret that Israel stands in violation of Security Council resolutions, among them SCR 242 calling for withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza. Thirty-five years later, the United States' response to that violation remains massive economic and military aid that allows Israel to remain defiant. As a permanent member of the Security Council, the United States has the right to veto resolutions it doesn't like. Though the United States' illegal invasion of Panama in 1989 drew condemnations around the world, no Security Council resolution would be passed calling on the United States to withdraw, hence no need for the United States to violate such a resolution. An attack on Iraq will have nothing to do with stopping terrorism. It will have nothing to do with the liberation of the Iraqi people. And it will be only marginally concerned with weapons of mass destruction. Instead, this will be a war to extend and deepen U.S. control over the energy-rich Middle East, the single most important source of strategic power in an industrial world that runs on oil WHY IRAQIS WANT USA OUT? BOSTON TEA PARTY (1773) USA was tired of British rule same way Iraqis are tired of Americans. They no longer want thier Also dont forget abt Bush's announcement on IRAQ not havign WMDS ..... WHY does USA think every country's problem is thier and they need to be a judge in it?....I think they should have spent all that time for thier expected Hurricane ......US has become a laughing stock now.....Also abt telling us to leave US I think u should stop drving ur car ;) as we provide your Fuel. OPS some body forgot abt the treatment they gave to IRAQI priosners yeah I have real comment on that issue Tania, 17 year old high school student in Arizona & pro-Bush suppoter respons to abused Iraqi prisoners , "They deserved it" Jackson Taylor (lives in Mussori) , 28 pro- Bush suppoter response to abuse of Iraqi prisoners " It was like a collage prank kind of thing." Now Bush is after IRAN how many countries is he gonna destroy before he will learn his lesson...... Also mwhy should any one trust USA with WMDs even if they have it when the FIRST & the ONLY Country in the whole HISTORY to use ATOMIC BOMB is USA ....after effects are still visible meaning Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....Abt those bombings in England sweetytell me does any one us really wnat to wrap ourselevs and blow up. We have to hate life alot to do that....May be those people did that after seeing whats been happening to thie r people. What will u do Kim if ur family is all bombed and u dont have food or water Obivosuly u wanna destroy the people who did that to u which brings us to why destory inocent people not who did that to us Lets say revenage is Hungry........n prevents most humans from thinking clearly...after all thats what makes us human not angels..Also i think most of u American citizens are unknowlgeable.....lets see some of the questions and comments i was faced by American society the warm welcome greetings "Do u belong to Al-quaida group>?" by a 37 yerar old educated neighbour. A kid who got pissed cauze i knew answers to teacher questions said "Didn't u go to a terrorist school in Pakistan?" "Are u hiding Bin ladin at ur house" I dont wear scarf . I look like an avergae american teenager n they only asked me those q when they found out I from Pakistan. They were also surpirsed that I could speak english n was qualified to be able to do Calculus n Statistics n my freshman year of High School. Also they didnt know that it snows in Pakistan. they thought Pakistan wa sin Middles East n I am an Arab and speak Arabic....Wrong Pakistan is not in Middle East, I am not an Arab but a Muslim and I speak Urdu fluently can just say my prayers in Arabic. Such Ignorancfollowing aritcle shows u How urs saying that Discriminating against Muslims is right it was written by me in my frehsman year Being a 17-year-old ethnic student in a High School is difficult enough to cope with. Everyday I am shunned upon because of my foreign accent and color by my peers, but it is quite understandable that the teenagers will ultimately pass through this phase and grow to be sensitive to other people's feelings once they are mature. But when you are sworn at sidewalks and treated suspiciously in shops by mature adults it gets hard to live with. I quote a personal experience that recently took place with me and my older sisters. One of them is a sophmore at Tam High and the other is a 28 year old visiting with her adorable 2 year old son from the other end of the world (Pakistan). We happened to go shopping on the day after the Thanksgiving to make the most of the sales. We don't have a car so we have to use the Golden Gate transport to get around. Our shopping ended with three huge red Target Bags as if Santa Claus had decided to carry three bags this year. Our merchandise actually included a vacuum cleaner and a DVD player along with many gifts my sister had to take back home. I mention this to actually make it clear that we had a lot of stuff to take back home and had to use the public transportation as usual to get home. The lady driver seemed to have an attitude right from the start. Halfway through the journey I noticed that we were actually given wrong transfers, as we had to change buses at San Rafeal transit center. That could have gotten us into trouble, as the three of us would have had to pay for the fare all over again. So I went up to her and she issued us with new transfers without an apology. Apart from the transfers mess up the rest of the 50 minutes ride on the bus went without an incident. When we reached our destination we divided our burden into three, my eldest sister holding her 2 year old sleeping baby in her arms, the other one carrying heavy Santa Bags and myself holding the babys bag and pram all ready to get off. Our nearest exit being the rear bus doors. I requested the driver in an audible tone to open the rear doors but she did not reply then my other sister requested the same, she still ignored the request. Then my eldest sister went "could you please open the rear doors we have a lot of stuff here" the lady driver replied, " No I will not. It is not a requirement to open the rear doors use the front one." Scared that we might miss the next bus and wait for one whole hour in the freezing cold with the hungry and tired baby we quickly squeezed our way down the narrow aisle once again with all the bags and her attitude brought back all the memories we have had of racial discrimination in the past. Who could have expected a thank you from us? So my eldest sister actually told her "you know what? You are a real BITCH" the driver replied with a sarcastic tone "Oh! Now you make me LOVE YOUR KIND even more" which made it even more obvious that she hated people from our ethnic background. My sister told the lady "yeah you are treating us this way because we are ethnic". The driver replied " I am an ethnic too." My sister added to her this comment "Yeh! thats why you are taking your frustrations out on us." We ran to catch the next bus as we would have missed it and waiting for the next one was not one of the options available to us considering the freezing cold evening and a tired, cold and hungry infant. But hey! The lady driver was not yet finished harassing us. She approached the next bus that we had just boarded and told the driver to get all four of us off. A few more harsh words were expressed by us like we would report her to the authorities as the lady tried to screw us up from the beginning by giving us wrong transfers and then bothering us even more inspite of all the baggage by not opening the rear doors because we were ethnic. Her colleague actually stood up for her and ordered us to get off the bus along with the baby or else he would call the police. We did as we were told, and then another confrontation took place with both the drivers outside the bus. My sister explained to the kind driver that we were first given wrong transfers and inspite of three very polite requests with a very genuine excuse of heavy baggage she refused us. The mean lady driver was already complaining on her mobile to her authorities on being cursed at by my sister and letting them know that she had got us removed from another bus. When my sister explained that she was the one who provoked her the mean driver actually justified her act that it was at her discretion to open the rear doors and not the custome's request. About the mess up with the transfers she cheekily said "it was mistake, so what? I issued you the correct ones later." My sister actually APOLOGIZED to her then for calling her a "BITCH" and told her again and again that her baby was cold, hungry and tired and we had to get back home. But no an apology was not enough for her as she continued to go on "if you cared so much about your baby you wouldn't be saying BITCH in front of him I would never do that in front of my children," . Yeh she was the Miss Perfect with the most gracious manners! I couldn't believe my sister swallowed her pride to apologize to this cold hearted lady and this lady just went on with all her crap. I was angry with my sister for apologizing but then I realized that she did not want her child to suffer in cold so late in the evening. She was a mother after all fighting her ego for her baby's sake .Its hard for me to erase that image of my sister holding her sleeping baby in her arms with tears in her eyes apologizing to this mean woman who obviously seemed to be enjoying our distress. Her colleague Driver took pity on us and realized that his lady colleague was being unreasonable. So the nice driver told all four of us to get on much to his colleagues disappointment. She shot at him then for not standing by her but he replied "its between you and them and got nothing to do with me; I have got to take the girls home. "I said to myself then "serves you right BITCH. Enjoy yourself in the cold. We are going home along with all our Santa bags." The kind driver actually opened the rear doors for us without our request when we reached home. All I could tell him was "thank you for being kind and showing humanity. Its because of people like you that makes America a great Nation. Looking back over the incident I just hope I don't grow up to be a mean and angry person like that African-American Lady Bus driver. Maybe her anger comes from way she might have been treated in her life being an African-American and is just hitting back at other ethnic people to avenge the discriminations she has been through. I just hope all the anger I feel won't make me a monster like her. I feel bad that my sister had to face this never-ending discrimination against ethnic in her short six-week visit but I thought I would fight back and try to create awareness by the power of my pen. America is a great country and I love it for all its freedom and justice towards humanity. I am not going to let a few racists like her spoil my American dream because this a country that I have grown to love as my home. We are all human beings with the same heart, mind and soul and all have the same feelings regardless of class, color, creed or religion. We should care for humans as humans because we have been blessed with intelligence and reasoning otherwise a "racist is no better than an animal." America has been a country of Immgriants for a long time btu that does not mean we shoudl be disloyal to our background and our culture ur saying technically Kim leave ur religion and everything ....how can one do that after all is not USA mixed with diffrent cultures ur asking us to forget our culture which is very crude n horrible of u

Kim: 10/3/2005 3:03:18 PM
First I am sorry about the way you were treated by that Bus Driver. It was wrong. Second I have never said give up your religion or even your culture. However, the connection you continue to have with the "old country" is concerning. While you might not use that connection for activities that would harm our country, others have used such connections to harm America. Going to and from Pakistan and having your sister visit from Pakistan is a matter of concern because although most people in Pakistan aren't terrorist supporters and the leader of Pakistan is one of the greatest people alive today, Pakistan is also known to unfortunately have terror training camps within it. So we need to at least look at people like you very carefully when you go to Pakistan and then come back to the US or when you have someone from Pakistan visit you. It is unfortunately necessary We are all victims of the times we live. I know it must be an incredible burden for you with the kids at school attacking you as they did. I don't know of anything I could say or do that would make it easier. These are bad times no doubt. It is why we must root out these terrorists within our country as soon as possible so that we don't have to be suspious of good people like you anymore. You never said if you were an American citizen or not. That's ok, you don't have to be. No one will ever require you to be. My comments are mainly for those who are American citizens but still consider themselves Pakistanis. My concern is the same concern that Norman Tebbitt had within his country with people who were British citizens but who still considered themselves Pakistani. We saw what happened there when some of those people blew themselves up a while back. They were born and raised in England, but they didn't see themselves as English.

Kim: 10/3/2005 3:07:58 PM
Regarding language, I am not talking about the rest of the world. I am talking about America. The language of America is English and people who live here should speak English. The American Government should not bend over backwards by conducting government business in foreign languages. And especially with things like voting where one absolutely should know English before participating.

Kim: 10/3/2005 3:10:51 PM
Tania was correct by the way.

Asmara: 10/3/2005 10:01:28 PM
Hey Kim I am on the way to becoming a US national Inshallah soon based on the fact that both of my parents are US nationals... n do plan to stay here till I finish all the education. In Pakistan our education system is based on O'levels meaning British system so I already went through the problem once of converting grading system suitable for US I mean just for the sake of that I am not ready to go thorugh that procedure again. Kim I think u should face reality people in this world are dual nationals and they dotend to like one country over the other. Its human nature. Its like u have parents that are sperated u do spend time with one one them more compared to the other one u love both of them buthavean extra liking for theother one u just cant expect people who have lived in more than two or several countries to like all of them or to hate one....What I get a reaction from u is saying that hate ur country like US..........We all choose one country we like best . Even afterI become a US nationals Ithink I willstill have greater likeness for Pakistan as Ican realte to it more.....n abtthose terrorist reports Biritish citizens who blew themselves up I am pretty sure that they cant change thier mind in like a short visit to pakistan n decide to blow them selves up somthing probably happened distrubing enough for them to harm some one else........Oh by the way on that checking reuqiremtn of u examining me properlynstuff n saying its okay for people to examine n pass rude n aweful comments I hope something so bad happens tha ur teenagers get treated by outside world the same way n get thier ego crushed. N i also think people who are terrorist wont travel so openly . Also u need to undertsand that most of them are very young kids probably around my age n they do this stuff because they have been provkedto do it I dont think u reallyread what I said .........in my previous response I wrote "What will u do Kim if ur family is all bombed and u dont have food or water Obivosuly u wanna destroy the people who did that to u which brings us to why destory inocent people not who did that to us Lets say revenage is Hungry........n prevents most humans from thinking clearly...after all thats what makes us human not angels" So all I am saying more war the more enemies left behind......U never responded to most of the stuff I put up thier. Kim I dont how old u are but we did have a huge discussion in my College class had one in my High shcool too I think....Since u sound old .......So I will update u discussion was abt does one really has to know english to survive in USA n based on recent article was no because most people come here for Business and when they do Business they work among each other meaning that they really dont need english to survive Also according to recent Surveys Spanish is spoken more in California then any other Language....Also if its one has to knwo enlgish to visit or live in USthen i guess when u visit some other country they shouldnt have english signs to help u......or usuddenly decide to move to some country n thier they shouldnt have english n expect uto learn thier languge.....also to vote u dont need to learn english cauze news comes in several languages.....n ur electricty bills to ur Tv channels areavailable in diffrent Languages......it will be a fun to see u learn a diffrent lang imagine how people try to learn english start with A B .........spelling knife n stuff.....If i ever have kids in US i would liek them to speak Urdu at Home.....n english outside I babysitt for servral families n most of them are French italian n spanish thier parents also stress on speaking thier primary language at home n englishoutside n believe methose kidsnow knowtwo or three languages just cauze I will teach my kids urdu does not mean they wont know english....They are serveral reaosn for that because if they ever visit paksitan with me i want them to feel comfortable to be able to communicate......plus each lang hasits own beauty....beacuse the ywill still have half thier relatives in Pakistan.....I thinku have a very shallow pesonailty n u need to travell outside US to know abt stuff as i qouted ealier What will u do Kim if ur family is all bombed and u dont have food or water Obivosuly u wanna destroy the people who did that to u which brings us to why destory inocent people not who did that to us Lets say revenage is Hungry........n prevents most humans from thinking clearly...after all thats what makes us human not angels....Its like Jewish kids here are encouraged to learn Hebrew n speak it same way just cauze we come herewe dont want our languages to die......u never commented on half the stuff I wrote......US is not the only who is an angel i think both sides are at fault as people tend to see only one side of the issue....just like pictures, humans, mirrors have two sides either ugly or good or bad or good .......poltics have two sides to it too.....

Asmara: 10/3/2005 10:04:19 PM
n governement unfortunatly does have to bend over backwards to conduct business in diffrent langs cauze they choose to do business in diffrent countries in vice versa

Kim: 10/4/2005 3:45:28 PM
Asmara if you are going to be loyal to Pakistan after becoming an US citizen you shouldn't become a US citizen. When you become a US citizen you should ONLY be loyal to America.

Kim: 10/4/2005 3:54:22 PM
I am not a particular fan of American Jews as they are loyal to another country besides America.

zainoo87@hotmail.com: 10/5/2005 4:16:43 PM
HAHA I think ur shallow and wierd.........I never said anything abt loyalty as I am not in anyarmy....I said abt likness n lol damn I am laughing right now .....Abt ur american Jew comment u need to get over uropinons cauze they are not being apperciated.....Lol I wonder what u have to say abt african americans.....they like Kenya n Africa...

kam: 10/5/2005 6:23:05 PM
Kim you'll be really annoyed to learn this...: :::::Languages in the United States::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Official language status The United States does not have an official language; nevertheless, American English (referred to in the US as simply English) is the language used for legislation, regulations, executive orders, treaties, federal court rulings, and all other official pronouncements. Many individual states have adopted English as their official language, and several states and territories are officially bilingual: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SOURCE::: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States

Kam: 10/5/2005 6:25:16 PM
Kim all ur ranting about language reminds me off this old JOKE HA HA: If you speak three languages, you're trilingual. If you speak two languages, you're bilingual. If you speak one language, you're American.

Kim: 10/5/2005 11:22:52 PM
Federal investigators say Leandro Aragoncillo, a naturalized citizen from the Philippines, used his top secret clearance to steal classified intelligence documents from White House computers. Why do I mention it here? First, because I don't want you to think Asmara that I am only concerned about Pakistani immigrants. Second, this person was a naturalized citizen and so it shows how sometimes when someone is a naturalized citizen, their loyalties still remain with the old country and why we need to be worried about that. First we had the case in England with "Pakistanis" who were born and raised in England (so were actually English though they still considered themselves Pakistanis) blowing themselves up in the subway. Now we have this problem with this Naturalized American citizen whose real loyalties was with the country of his birth, the Philippines. There has been talk in the Philippines about allowing people who were from the Philippines who are now citizens of other countries to vote in their elections and to have other citizenship rights. As I have always said, it is a simple fact that one can't be loyal to two countries at the same time. One loyality will always be stronger. The very idea of "citizenship" is that one is loyal to the country they have citizenship in exclusively and so when they do get citizenship and are still loyal to the country of their birth, they are being deceitful. Look, all I am saying, is if you want to be Pakistani, be Pakistani. If you want to be American and you are in our country legally and fulliful all the requirements to become an American citizen, then do so as long as you can leave any loyality to Pakistan behind. If you are an US citizen then you should be an American without hyphens. If you can't do that then you shouldn't have US citizenship.

Kim: 10/5/2005 11:38:53 PM
Is it so much to ask that if an American citizen is going to vote in an American election (which of course only American citizens should do and they shouldn't vote in any other kind of election) that the person speaks English. Having Chinese signs showing where to vote is wrong. First for the fact that I don't know anyone in my community that speaks Chinese, but more to the point because if you can't speak English you shouldn't be voting. And if we post signs in Chinese, why not other languages? Heck, let's force the government to print every document they produce in every language in existence. We could afford to do that can't we? This is known as sarcasm in case you don't recognize it. That's when you say the opposite of what you mean. We really couldn't afford to do that. Seriously what we need to do is make English our Official Language. It just makes common sense. And especially when it comes to elections where only English speaking people should be voting in the first place.

Kim: 10/6/2005 11:46:12 AM
Kam, I understand why US territories are bi-lingual since they aren't really totally a part of the US. I even understand Louisiana and Hawaii given their unique individual histories. But I was very sad to hear about New Mexico. We must push through a constitutional amendment clarifying that English shall be our official langauge. It will really reduce the cost of governement and it only makes sense. A country with dual languages is a divided country (just ask Canada). You should be all for this as for you the current situation could mean that you don't only have to learn English but Spanish as well. This is how crazy it has all become. In California voter information is in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, Tagalog, and Vietnamese. In Oregon, voter information is in English and Spanish. In Washington State, voter information is in Chinese and Spanish. Idaho, it's in English and Spanish. This is DESPITE the fact that to become a naturalized US citizen one must show English Language Proficiency and despite the fact that if one doesn't really know English then they really don't know what is going around them enough as it relates to public issues to make an educated vote. Is this an attempt by the corrupt in our society to encourage non-citizens to vote illegally? Most likely.

Kim: 10/6/2005 11:50:49 AM
If you aren't an American citizen it is illegal for you to vote in an American election. Doesn't that just make common sense? And if you are an America citizen and you vote in a foreign election you should lose your US citizenship. Again, just common sense.

Asmara (Zainab): 10/6/2005 1:22:51 PM
Kim I think u have no commonsense

Asmara (Zainab): 10/6/2005 1:24:09 PM
N I know what sacrasm means .......Ms.English ....

Kim: 10/6/2005 6:04:58 PM
I am glad you understand sarcasm. It is a technique I use often, but then I realized that some languages and cultures might not have that in their language.

Kim: 10/6/2005 6:09:17 PM
What is more common sense than saying that if you vote in an US election you should be an US citizen and if you are an US citizen you should know English well enough to be able to vote without the ballot being in your former language (if your aren't a naive English speaker). It is quite stupid for the government to put out voter pamplets or ballots in languages other than English. Either it's stupid or it is an attempt to encourage non-legal voting. Either way it shouldn't be done.

Kim: 10/6/2005 6:12:16 PM
The case of Leandro Aragoncillo proves that "diversity" is harming America today. There was a time when immigration made sense to our country and was more benefitial than harmful, but that time has long past.

Kim: 10/9/2005 5:49:06 PM
I just wanted to say that I have been posting on this page regarding this topic for the past 3 years. This is not a joke. I need a hobby.

Mark A. Morris: 10/11/2005 5:04:52 PM
Here it is in black, and white. Do not become American. Why come here then? Just to make money, or to try and change our laws? One language, and one culture. If you want to worship a moon god, and pretend to live in another country, please get the bloody hell back to the third world country you are from, and do not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

Kam: 10/15/2005 9:02:46 PM
Mark why dont u go pray 2 one of ur 3 God's. Its a free country let us do what we're doing and the Govt will Take Care of us if we create any problems. and Kim dont worry u can make posting on this site a hobby its entertaining after all it'd be pretty boring if there werent any differing opinions/views

Kim: 10/16/2005 9:47:53 AM
If they can't commit to America with all their heart and soul, forsaking all loyality to their previous country, I rather that they don't become a citizen of America.

Kim: 10/19/2005 3:47:56 PM
I like eggs.

kam: 10/19/2005 6:34:09 PM
Kim i want people to become citizen of this country regarless of where they're loyalties are because i know that after they become citizen and enjoy the benefits of being a citizen they'll be pulled into being loyal to this country alone because as citizen they'll the good side of this nation along with the bad and hopefully the good side of this country will out weight the bad God willing.

Kim: 10/27/2005 8:06:41 AM
But Kam, what do we do about people like Leandro Aragoncillo then? And what about people who vote in the best interests of their "home country" instead of voting for what is the best interests of America?

kam: 11/7/2005 9:36:01 PM
Kim you worry too much just remember God's in the drivers seat without his will nothing happens we're all here on borrowed time so don't stress urself out and have faith in the creator he'll take care of it =)

Kim: 5/1/2006 10:14:22 AM
But if you just sit there nothing happens. What happened to Praise Allah, but tie your camel to a post? Under your theory Kam we shouldn't help the victims of Earthquakes because God is in the driver's seat and so it must be God's will.

Dave: 7/29/2006 4:40:36 PM
Want to know what happens when someone becomes an American citizen but still keeps his primary identity of himself to being that of the country of his birth? http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/local/story/8016256p-7909196c.html A Pasco man of Pakistani descent who is suspected in the shootings reportedly told staff members: "I'm Muslim American. I'm angry at Israel," before opening fire. One person was killed and five were wounded. ----- How many other Pakistani Sleeper Cells are in America just waiting to be activiated?

Sumiki: 8/18/2006 12:45:48 PM
The only problem with this country is that the people are not informed about what is really happening in the worl. They listen to their narrowly covered newsstations who rant about what happened to which house in which county and the only international news is through filters of the government giving a one sided picture that conforms to what the government wants its ppl to hear-mostly making ppl fearful so that they would be ok with their country wasting billions on weapons and warfare to kill innocent children in another country so that it could get the oil(which by the way they dont know) coz they never heard that point of view. Us citixens should travel abroad especially to countries that they think are mysterious and/ or mystical and find out that the world has come a long way-centuries- from the time when Arabian Nights was written- which is also very different from what was the reality at that time. Also, we are usually afraid of the unknown and thats what the government is doing, instilling fear without really informing the population. Why not find out what these ppl really are and what they believe. You might come back surprised. Who are these moon worshipers anyway? i heard Hindus worshipped the sun but I bet US citizens dont know much about these things coz in contrast to ppl in most other countries , children only learn US history-world history=ancient civilizations, us geography, us social and community studies, ...why dont u switch offur cable service, and start travelling and please DONOT stay in hotels frequented by Americans!!!

Dave: 9/16/2006 3:36:10 PM
"...start travelling and please DO NOT stay in hotels frequented by Americans." Sounds like a perfect way to get kidnapped. Is that what you are saying, you want to see us get kidnapped?

Kim: 1/8/2007 1:03:09 PM
Here is a good discussion that it kind of related to all of this. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=183355&page=2

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